Official vBulletin Announcements Discuss vBulletin 4.0 is going to cost even more? (vBulletin Leaked) in the General Forums forums; Originally Posted by KevinL I know I will probably get some flack from this but... Are the price increases..if they are even that much...really that bad? If you compare it ...

[Nick R]

Originally Posted by KevinL

I know I will probably get some flack from this but...

Are the price increases..if they are even that much...really that bad? If you compare it some other software out there it is still a deal. I understand that if you have more then one license it will cost more but I mean come on! Everything in time goes up! If nothing increased in price we would all still be buying cars for $2500 like in the 60's! Would it have been easier to swallow if it was an actual full re-write like everything they said and a price increase most likely, but this is what we get.

I just don't get why people don't think price increases should ever happen...especially since every company and every product that any of us has ever bought has gone up in price...

Kevin, the price changes aren't bad at all. In fact, Wayne Luke explains how the vBulletin 4 price changes will save you money in the long run.

[Rocket 442]

Originally Posted by KevinL

I know I will probably get some flack from this but...

Are the price increases..if they are even that much...really that bad? If you compare it some other software out there it is still a deal. I understand that if you have more then one license it will cost more but I mean come on! Everything in time goes up! If nothing increased in price we would all still be buying cars for $2500 like in the 60's! Would it have been easier to swallow if it was an actual full re-write like everything they said and a price increase most likely, but this is what we get.

I just don't get why people don't think price increases should ever happen...especially since every company and every product that any of us has ever bought has gone up in price...

I agree to a point there, and I even said that eariler in the thread. What bothers me is the new idea of charging everyone a price just to upgrade to 4.0.

Sure some companies charge for "new versions", but that isn't what vB ever planned on doing and you know it. Its a way to deepen Internet Brands pockets by screwing over their customers and seeing how far they can take it without a huge backlash.

Besides, vB 4.0 really shouldn't even be considered a "new version" because its a few tweaks on the current system because they couldn't afford to take the time and build it like they should.

[scottct1]

I don't have a problem with the pricing. vBulletin pays for itself in no time.

I dont like the limited amount of testing they are going to do, especially for big boards like mine which run on a number of servers. They need to test it on all kinds of hardware setups.

In addition the other thing bugging me is there seems to be no blueprint on what improvements they are making for big boards like ours.

[Brandon Sheley]

Now I really hate to post from this site, because the admin bans 99% of the competing sites, but it was brought to my attention via Twitter that an IB staff member has made a few post on TAZ
I'll quote them and link theme here..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Bandit [/URL]
I wouldn't expect you to answer with anything different. Your a rep for IB. So of course you going to respond with something like this. Damage control is after all a wise thing to try. But don't brush off peoples opinion especially not here or at VB.com. Which seems to be what is happening.


I hope I don't come across as "brushing you off".
I would encourage you and everyone else to form an opinion on vBulletin, vB4.0 and even Internet Brands, however I am merely respectfully suggesting that the proof of success of vB4.0 will be in the product and not in any informational leak.

Its not as if the forum world isn't filled with some great competing products, and I am sure if the vb team does a poor job people will vote with their feet and go utilize those competing products, having seen vB4.0 I would be surprised if that was the case - but I will let you draw your own conclusions, as ultimately we are judged by all of you, the customers, not by ourselves.

I might add - I am not here as a "rep for IB", yes, I am employed by them, but I participate on this site to learn about being an admin, and hopefully on occasions share some of that knowledge I have learnt to other admins.

Admin Zone Forums - View Single Post - vBulletin information leak

If I may chime in for a second, I have little to do directly with the vB team (although I do manage Club Lexus Ciphur - to my recollection apart from upgrading the software and hardware for the site we haven't altered the community - but thats a seperate discussion, feel free to PM me here or on Club Lexus with your thoughts on the community)

Forgive me for having a quiet giggle at the rumours and conjector being thrown around, I don't have any idea "what was leaked", or what pricing for vB4 is going to be (or how VB screwed its self by being bought by IB) or most of the other comments in here , but I might ever so humbly suggest that one might wait for the product to be released (or even for an announcement to be made) and then one can draw their own conclusions as to whether the quality of the product, the features of the product etc. are in line with the pricing and its competition.

I have used most forum softwares out there as an admin (with the honourable exception of IPB), and from an admin perspective I am yet to find a product that is as good in the areas of vB 3.8 (although I do find the intuitive admin interface of zeroforum to be much better for its simplistic nature) needless to say vb4.0 will be extremely good, and comparing it to vB3.8 it is like comparing a mid 90's Hyundai with the new Genesis Coupe (for non car peeps, its a gigantic step up).

I would encourage you to draw your own conclusions about vb4.0 when you have the oportunity too, but the engineer in me is coming out when I advise you to ensure you have all the data points before you come to that conclusion.
I think you have very few here, and the ones you have are of questionable legitimacy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGTB
vBulletin are expecting to do a few weeks PRIVATE Beta testing with a handful of people and bring out a good product



I am not sure if you are familiar with Internet Brands, so without intentionally sounding patronising, I will assume you may not be familiar with what the company encompasses - we own the largest network of forums in the world in addition to Jelsoft (I oversee 96 Automotive forums which alone get over 200million page views a month ).
So, given its very much in our best interest to bring out a good product with vb4.0 not just for the continued success as vBulletin as the premier forum software product, but for the continued success of everything in the business, I would like to think we would get it right, otherwise I might be added to Los Angeles' unemployment statistics
I also might suggest that given we own a lot of forums that we may have some pretty good test cases to do testing

Admin Zone Forums - View Single Post - vBulletin information leak

[noppid]

I said it from the beginning. These folks are big board owners with a corner on a few markets it would seem. It's no longer in their best interest to sell the best BB system IMO. This struck me as the proverbial how do you eliminate competition in a market? Control the software in this case is a thought.

I just don't see how this is in their best interest. Are the custom hacks, if any, they use on their big boards going into vB4 or posted on the .org?

Food for thought.

[AyeCapn]

Originally Posted by Rocket 442

What bothers me is the new idea of charging everyone a price just to upgrade to 4.0.

I doubt there's anything "just" about it. It's a major new version, not 3.9.

[scottct1]

And whats "Major and New" about it?

[AyeCapn]

I don't know and neither does anyone else.

[mrgtb]

Well I've just wrote an article here about vBulletin 4 versus IPB3

Link: mrGTB • June • vBulletin 4 Versus IPB3 Forum Board War

[Brandon Sheley]

Originally Posted by mrgtb

Well I've just wrote an article here about vBulletin 4 versus IPB3

Link: mrGTB • June • vBulletin 4 Versus IPB3 Forum Board War

Nice write up, I posted it here
Twitter / Brandon Sheley: vBulletin 4 Versus IPB3 Fo ...
I'll take a look and comment on it this afternoon

[Rocket 442]

Originally Posted by AyeCapn

I don't know and neither does anyone else.

Because its 3.9

If you didn't notice, they began by saying how 4.0 was going to be a full rewrite of their software, then slowly and steadily began creeping down farther and farther to the point where it is now some new features, and a new template system. The template system is what I'm excited about. Not excited enough to get screwed over by them charging me just to upgrade when its not implied in their license purchasing to begin with.

What scares me is the people who will blindly follow a software as if its a family member. I have no ties to be nice to vBulletin, Jelsoft, or InternetBrands if they aren't nice to me as their customer...

I'm hoping enough people wake up if 4.0 is not good and show Internet Brands that they cannot treat customers like this, but I doubt it'll happen.

This is all with me speculating it won't be an amazing new software because I just doubt it will be. Every time I've got excited about vB's development it's disappointed me so far, so they've gotta prove me otherwise.

[Nick R]

Keep in mind that the announced feature-set is only for the first of multiple releases. Unlike ever before, the 4.0 branch is in an iterative development structure, meaning each new version will bring more than the usual bug-fixes and minor features - they will all have major changes, so that by the end of the 4.0 branch, it will be like a completely revamped platform. It's a better alternative to doing a complete re-write all at once.

I feel like I'm repeating this...

[Rocket 442]

Originally Posted by Nick R

Keep in mind that the announced feature-set is only for the first of multiple releases. Unlike ever before, the 4.0 branch is in an iterative development structure, meaning each new version will bring more than the usual bug-fixes and minor features - they will all have major changes, so that by the end of the 4.0 branch, it will be like a completely revamped platform. It's a better alternative to doing a complete re-write all at once.

I feel like I'm repeating this...

I don't agree.

Take the time and do a full re-write. Now instead, they're going to be adding functionality (which then needs more bug fixes, we all know that). So say they add functionality X at 4.2, there will then be a 4.2.1, 4.2.2 that are just for fixes to their new fuctionalities that could've been caught during a beta stage in a full re-write of development and they'd be farther ahead to begin with. If you guys haven't noticed, vB isn't exactly great at keeping up with dates and deadlines. I expected vB 4.0 to be late. I was right (sure they're on time, but not really, they just axed a bunch of implementations to get it out asap and get some $$$ in their pockets)

[Wayne Luke]

This is what a full rewrite entails as spec'd out by the developers.

24-30 months of development.
18-24 months of beta testing.

Are you really willing to wait 4-5 years for a new version of the software? If you think that is far off, then remember back to 3.0, this is inline with that. 3.0 was in beta for 18 months after an alpha version was running on a development site for 6 months. This might have been acceptable if vBulletin 4 development started in 2006 when it was specced out but it didn't. We ended up releasing 3.7 and 3.8 to meet customer demands. vBulletin 4 didn't start development until October of 2008.

And that is why it was decided that a complete rewrite was the wrong decision at this time. People complain about vBulletin being behind now (its not but that is another issue). What are they going to thing when its 4 years between versions?

[Rocket 442]

Originally Posted by Wayne Luke

This is what a full rewrite entails as spec'd out by the developers.

24-30 months of development.
18-24 months of beta testing.

Are you really willing to wait 4-5 years for a new version of the software? If you think that is far off, then remember back to 3.0, this is inline with that. 3.0 was in beta for 18 months after an alpha version was running on a development site for 6 months. This might have been acceptable if vBulletin 4 development started in 2006 when it was specced out but it didn't. We ended up releasing 3.7 and 3.8 to meet customer demands. vBulletin 4 didn't start development until October of 2008.

And that is why it was decided that a complete rewrite was the wrong decision at this time. People complain about vBulletin being behind now (its not but that is another issue). What are they going to thing when its 4 years between versions?

There was quite a bit discussion about 3.8 a while back and how they originally said 3.7 was the final release. I won't get into that. If vB did start 4.0 back when they spec'ed it out, wouldn't it have made much more sense? Rather than half-assing a blog and social networking features (on their what was soon-to-be outdated 3 series.)

I will, however, get into the full re-write. If the developers really spec'd it at that long, why was there ever talk by vBulletin that a full re-write was coming for 4.0. Tons of excuses and backtracking has constantly gotten quite a few people (and quite a few big board owners) pretty annoyed.

Couldn't IB also bring in a few more developers and make this process much faster? Yes they could, but they wont. They're busy developing their own exclusive add-ons for their own boards that they run. I don't think the recent staffing changes are neccessarily a bad thing, but with the timing issues I feel like they better start hiring some fresh blood soon.

So now, instead of a re-write we get a semi-finished product that will have no public beta testing, and will take even longer than the 5 years your developers spec'ed out.

And while we're all worried about time, vB has decided to work on a CMS. If it is going to take vBulletin 5 years to create a rewrite of their forum software, only God knows how long it'd take to make a actual CMS.

[Wayne Luke]

Originally Posted by Rocket 442

I will, however, get into the full re-write. If the developers really spec'd it at that long, why was there ever talk by vBulletin that a full re-write was coming for 4.0. Tons of excuses and backtracking has constantly gotten quite a few people (and quite a few big board owners) pretty annoyed.

It isn't really backtracking. The developers originally had one vision for vBulletin and the owner wanted something else. When Jelsoft was acquired by IB, none of the staff knew before hand. We were told a few days before the public announcement. With new owners development priorities change.

Couldn't IB also bring in a few more developers and make this process much faster? Yes they could, but they wont. They're busy developing their own exclusive add-ons for their own boards that they run. I don't think the recent staffing changes are neccessarily a bad thing, but with the timing issues I feel like they better start hiring some fresh blood soon.

IB is actually bringing on more developers and continuing to interview more people for at least four positions that I am aware of. They aren't developing customized plugins for their communities. The people that run IB's communities are separate from the Jelsoft/vBulletin division. We're actually a small part of the company but growing. There is a problem bringing additional resources into an ongoing project though. They need to learn the protocols, development standards and code as well so they don't provide an immediate benefit. In fact it would probably be 6-8 weeks before they code their first line.

So now, instead of a re-write we get a semi-finished product that will have no public beta testing, and will take even longer than the 5 years your developers spec'ed out.

In my opinion public beta testing is overrated. Even with vBulletin 3.7, we had thousands of downloads of the software during the testing period. Maybe a couple dozen actually submitted bug reports. Some people who downloaded the 3.7 beta are still running that version today and have never even upgraded. Consider between 3.7.0 gold and 3.7.1 that 150 bugs were confirmed and fixed.

I don't see how having a closed beta with participants that will actually participate is any different. Especially considering that vBulletin 4 is already undergoing testing by trained and qualified quality assurance people before we release the first alpha.

However I can sense your pissed because you feel that you're being cheated which isn't really the case. Business priorities change over time and Internet Brands isn't trying to put its customers out of business but to create a forum solution that continues to fit the needs of close to 100,000 websites around the world. It isn't as easy a task as some would like to believe. Qualified software engineers are not cheap. In the past, Jelsoft had a very slow development cycle. We are working to change that and increase turn around without outpacing our resources.

That's okay, I learned back in the '80s that I needed a thick skin to survive in this business.

[Nick R]

Andy, also remember: what happened when 3.7 was released? People weren't totally satisfied because a lot of features weren't up to par and were what most consider 'half-assed'. By the time everybody tried out the beta and offered their suggestions (some of which were ingenious), we got the same response as usual: "This will not be added to the 3.7.x branch as it is feature-locked".

With an iterative development plan, we will be able to make suggestions as progression is made and we will be able to see them come to life much sooner than we are used to. This gives customers the ability to feel and actually be a bit more 'hands-on' in the development, making suggestions and offering feedback as development goes on.

They've never done it this way before, so I think it's going to be interesting to see how things move along.

[Rocket 442]

Originally Posted by Nick R

Andy, also remember: what happened when 3.7 was released? People weren't totally satisfied because a lot of features weren't up to par and were what most consider 'half-assed'. By the time everybody tried out the beta and offered their suggestions (some of which were ingenious), we got the same response as usual: "This will not be added to the 3.7.x branch as it is feature-locked".

Exactly my point. Now we're going to a closed beta which means even less user involvement or suggestions before 4.0 is released. Sure, they might implement things in 4.5 that you suggest in 4.0, but if it takes 5 years for a re-write... it's gonna take some time to even get any small ideas through to them, then they've gotta release the fixes to get those ideas up to date. No way it'll work out to be any faster.

Originally Posted by Nick R

With an iterative development plan, we will be able to make suggestions as progression is made and we will be able to see them come to life much sooner than we are used to. This gives customers the ability to feel and actually be a bit more 'hands-on' in the development, making suggestions and offering feedback as development goes on.

I'd love to think like that, and I hope it happens, but I'm doubting that'll happen.

Originally Posted by Wayne Luke

However I can sense your pissed because you feel that you're being cheated which isn't really the case. Business priorities change over time and Internet Brands isn't trying to put its customers out of business but to create a forum solution that continues to fit the needs of close to 100,000 websites around the world. It isn't as easy a task as some would like to believe. Qualified software engineers are not cheap. In the past, Jelsoft had a very slow development cycle. We are working to change that and increase turn around without outpacing our resources.

That's okay, I learned back in the '80s that I needed a thick skin to survive in this business.

There is a difference between 'pissed' and showing frustration with the direction of a company. I've got plenty thick of skin to handle it. Why is it when i voice a opinion that differs from a jelsoft/vb employee I'm "pissed"? I'm more frustrated and trying to get my words in when I can than pissed, but you can label it how you'd like.

Either way, I really do hope I'm eating crow by this time next year. I just highly doubt it. I think you and I both know there are plenty of vB owners who have you guys under the microscope right now and aren't quite happy with the current direction. To say that you've widened the gap compared to other forum software would be like saying the Detroit Lions are the best team in the NFL right now.

[Wayne Luke]

I am sorry if I mistook the tone of your post. It seemed to go beyond simple frustration though.

[Rocket 442]

Originally Posted by Wayne Luke

I am sorry if I mistook the tone of your post. It seemed to go beyond simple frustration though.

No problem.

Like I said, I do hope I'm eating crow and vB 4.0 - 4.X blow us away. My Camaro site is going to stay on vB unless something drastic happens because I've put too much time and money into it to just hop up and leave.

However I might try other software for new startups.

[Wayne Luke]

I didn't attack him nor did I try to be superior. I just stated the facts as they are. If the truth and facts are offensive than I will take my leave of this site and not bother you again. As I cannot participate in a site that is based on rumor and innuendo without being open the facts. I wish everyone here the best of luck with their future endeavors. Whatever they may be.

And to think, I have been reading this thread for weeks hoping to help set some fears at rest but pretty sure my words wouldn't be welcome. I guess my initial assumption was proved correct. I have never been rude to a customer. I have been terse and matter of fact when it is called for but I have never been rude. If stating an observation is being rude than civilization is doomed.

[noppid]

Originally Posted by Wayne Luke

I didn't attack him nor did I try to be superior. I just stated the facts as they are. If the truth and facts are offensive than I will take my leave of this site and not bother you again. As I cannot participate in a site that is based on rumor and innuendo without being open the facts. I wish everyone here the best of luck with their future endeavors. Whatever they may be.

And to think, I have been reading this thread for weeks hoping to help set some fears at rest but pretty sure my words wouldn't be welcome. I guess my initial assumption was proved correct. I have never been rude to a customer. I have been terse and matter of fact when it is called for but I have never been rude. If stating an observation is being rude than civilization is doomed.

So much for that tough skin, hey?

You better get in the loop my friend before you talk out your ass. I still have all the emails from when ya'll treated me like crap over there. I may not be the nicest person when I'm annoyed and expect help and I may not always be right, but I will never forget how you people put up your walls over there and shut me out with a big **** YOU as you still do to others. I bet there could be a web site about it. But ya'll were never important enough for anyone to start one.

Despite that I succeed hugely in a YOUR world without your endorsement or help.

So please shut up.

You couldn't reconcile your personal feelings with me to give me the service I needed when I needed it. No company needs staff like that.

You can't even stand up like a man with a tough skin as you said you had just a few posts ago, you're running away insulted.

Worse, you're passing the blame to the site instead of on me.

Wow, I have been wanting to get that off my chest for years. It feels good to have succeeded despite you, to have multiple backup plans to succeed beyond having to do business with you if I choose not to and to see your business finally get the reckoning it deserves.

Sadly, though, I think it's a wasted lesson.

Thanks for nothing.

[Digital Jedi]

Yeah, I don't really see where anyone was attacked. All Wayne ever said was that he sensed he was pissed. From the tone of the post, I sensed he was pissed too. Pissed, meaning, not happy. He's not happy, right?

Wayne, this is really no different then every other announcement vB makes about future plans. The unhappiest are always the most vocal. I do it too on other discussion boards where I take a critical eye towards some things. (Disney, for example) The thing is, as you mention, you've got circa 10,000 other customers who are just fine, or at the very least, understand why the changes are coming. Your right to try to alleviate some of those fears. But folks need to understand that your catering to a broader base and dealing with A LOT of things behind the scenes that they're just never going to see and can only speculate on.

It's like the folks that point to the "useless" social networking features. I've been to near 100 vBulletin sites in the last two years. I've seen more sites that make daily use the social networking features, then the ones that don't. Because my site doesn't make use of it, doesn't reflect on every customer. You can't just say it's bad because you don't like it. vB can't just do it differently, because their broader reach exceeds yours.

noppid, I hate to point this out, but your actually the only one who called anybody an ass. I can't remember if that's irony or coincidence.

[noppid]

Originally Posted by Digital Jedi

noppid, I hate to point this out, but your actually the only one who called anybody an ass. I can't remember if that's irony or coincidence.

You'd have to point that out to me. I likely did it and it was likely deserved. I don't mince my words. I usually say what I mean.

So, I won't defend the statement until I see it in context.

It takes one to know one, so you can be sure I am an authority on the subject.

Thanks

[nexia]

can i be one of yours then?

i need some statement regarding myself...

i also need to be part of something...

[noppid]

Sorry, my entourage is complete. I have plenty of people following me already.

[nexia]

if you're the one who took the photo, i would say you're a follower, not a followed, noppid... rofl...

[noppid]

Originally Posted by nexia

if you're the one who took the photo, i would say you're a follower, not a followed, noppid... rofl...

Actually, it's me leading. But hey, at least you found your calling. Mindlessly amusing yourself due to a lack of facts.

Kinda the same way you jumped in to this to begin with. Quit while you're behind.

Thanks

[noppid]

I have to go to the beach. We'll have to spar over this another time.

Peace.

[nexia]

i'm a spectator noppid, i did not decide to join your A$$ group yet... rofl